[요약리뷰] 김작가TV - 행복해집시다, 서은국교수

 

 

 

### 한글 요약

**20년 동안 행복만 연구했습니다, 현실적으로 더 행복해지는 방법 (연세대 서은국 교수)**

- **유전적 요인**: 행복의 개인차는 약 50%가 유전적 요인에 의해 결정되며, 이는 더 높을 수도 있음. 환경의 변화가 행복에 큰 영향을 미침.
- **환경의 중요성**: 행복은 외부 환경의 변화에 의해 좌우되며, 환경을 바꾸는 것이 생각을 바꾸는 것보다 중요함.
- **외향성과 행복**: 외향성은 행복의 중요한 요소 중 하나이며, 외향적인 사람들이 내향적인 사람들보다 더 많은 자극을 추구함으로써 행복감을 더 자주 느낄 수 있음.
- **행복의 본질**: 행복은 생존과 재생산을 위한 도구로서 인간의 생물학적 본능과 깊은 관련이 있음. 행복을 추구하는 것은 본능적이며 생물학적으로 중요함.
- **노력과 행복**: 노력만으로는 행복이 결정되지 않으며, 개인의 유전적 특성과 외부 환경이 중요하게 작용함. 노력의 과도한 강조는 스트레스를 유발할 수 있음.
- **행복의 평균값**: 사람마다 행복의 평균값이 있으며, 이는 유전적 요인과 환경적 요인에 의해 결정됨. 행복한 삶을 위해 자신의 행복을 증진시키는 활동을 하는 것이 중요함.

### English Summary

**I Studied Happiness for 20 Years: Realistic Ways to Be Happier (Professor Seo Eun-guk, Yonsei University)**

- **Genetic Factors**: About 50% of individual differences in happiness are determined by genetic factors, which could be even higher. Changes in the environment significantly affect happiness.
- **Importance of Environment**: Happiness is influenced by external changes, making it more important to change the environment rather than merely changing one's thoughts.
- **Extraversion and Happiness**: Extraversion is a key factor in happiness. Extraverted people seek more stimulation, leading to more frequent feelings of happiness.
- **Nature of Happiness**: Happiness is a tool for survival and reproduction, deeply connected to human biological instincts. Pursuing happiness is instinctive and biologically significant.
- **Effort and Happiness**: Happiness is not solely determined by effort; genetic predispositions and external environments play crucial roles. Overemphasizing effort can lead to stress.
- **Average Happiness Level**: Each person has an average happiness level influenced by genetic and environmental factors. Engaging in activities that enhance personal happiness is important for a fulfilling life.

20년 동안 행복만 연구했습니다, 현실적으로 더 행복해지는 방법 (연세대 서은국 교수) - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O20LxKLW8Bw

Transcript:
(00:00) 책에서 데이터가 나오는데 행복을 개인차 결정이는 가장 큰 요인 중 하나가 유전인 이게 거의 50% 결정 한다고요 개인적인 생각을여 주신다면 전 더 그 이상이라고 생각해요 우리가 뭐 하면 되고 노력이 필요하다라는게 어느 선까지는 우리에게 뭔가 희망을 주고 하지만 어느 선을 넘으면 엄청난 스트레스의 원인이 될 수도 있어요 사실 대한민국에서 행복에 관련된 책 중에서 가장 많이 팔렸고 가장 유명한 책이 이제 행복의 기운인데 제가 그 책을 원래 사서 봤었는데 이번에 또 이제 리커버 대서요 책 이제 나와서 제가 사실 행복에 대해서 정말 관심이 많거든요 제가 불행해 관심이 많은 건 아니고 그냥 행복 자체 주제 자체에도 관심도 많고 또 한국 사람들이 행복하지 않은 분들이 좀 많잖아요 근데 좀 아이러니한 거는 행복하고 싶지만 행복 책을 사서 보진 않더라고요 그래서 저는 저희 채널에서 많은 분 시청자분들이 좀 행복하셨으면 해서 책을 안 보시는 분이 있다면이 영상을 보시고 부족하다면 책이라도 온다면 수 이 책에서 말씀하신게이 책을 본다가 더 행복해지는 거는 아닐지 몰라도
(01:04) 우리가 왜 행복해져야 하는지 그런 이유는 좀 알 수 있지 않을까 싶어서 준비했는데요 우선 많은 행복 지침서가 사실 이런 것들 뭐 잘 기발해서 되게 많이 나오는 얘기긴 한데 마음 먹기에 모든 것이 달려 있으니까 생각을 바꾸라고 하면서 이제 긍정적으로 생각해라 너는 왜 생각 그렇게 하냐 태도를 바꿔야지이라 얘기 하는데 교수님 책에 보면 이게 잘못 되었다고요 잘못됐다 그보다는 사실은이 뭐 굳이 거슬러 올라가면 심이라고 하는 학문 자체가 많은 인간의 어떤 문제를 진짜 지금 선생님께서 말씀하신 것처럼 어떤 태도를 바꾸고 마음먹기에 따라서 바꿀 수 있다라는 주장을 너무 어떻게 하면 강하게 오래해 왔어요 그런데 그 생각이 뭐 어떻게 하면 짧은 이유는 어 우리의 어떤 생각이나이 감정 행복 같은 것들은 되게 옛부터 되게 어떤 되게 신비적인 생각을 했어요 인간은 어떻게 생각을 할까 당나귀는 못 하는데 그랬을 때 옛날부터 가졌었던 어떤 구도는 뭐냐면 어 인간의 어떤 신체 심장이 뛰고 폐가 호흡을 하고 이런 거는 상당히 기계적인 수준에서
(02:09) 우리가 좀 이해할 수가 있는데 그것보다 형이상학적인 이런 감정이라 그지 이런 거는 그런 거로 설명이 좀 안 된다 그랬을 때 그런 거 우리 어떤 마인드 소위 말하는 어떤 마음이라고 하는 것이 만들어내는 경험들은 어떤 몸과는 질적으로 다른 어떤 선팅이 만들어 낸다라는 약간 무책임한 얘기죠 이런 신비주의적인 생각을 가지고 있어서 확인되지 않은 적이지 않 그렇죠 그래서 옛날에 중세 때는 뭐 이런 표현도 썼죠 인간의 감정이라는 거는 우리 뇌 안에 있는 어떤 아주 작은 인간 미인 미인이라 하면 여기서 아름다운 사람이 아니라 무진장 작은 인간이 그거를 느끼고 경험을 한다 막 이런 식의 약간 썰도 풀었지만 요지는 뭐냐면 이런 감정이나 이런 것들을 만들어내는 것이 어떤 우리 우리 안에 있는 알 수 없는 어떤 무엇이라고 생각을 했다는 거죠네 자 그런데 비교적 최근에 와 가지고 우 심리학의 어떤 기본적인 사람에 대한 이해를 좀 완전히 다르게 하기 시작하게 된 계기는 뭐냐면 아 우리가
(03:14) 옛날에 어떤 신체적인 활동과 마음을 이렇게 구문해석 우리가 얘기하는 마음에 있는 내용물들이 있잖아요 생각이나 감정 이것도 우리 신체적인 기관과 질적으로 다르지 않다라는 아주 좀 생물 적인 생각을 하게 되었어요 그래서 감정을 느끼고 하는 것이 우리가 추위를 느끼는 것이 갑자기 있따가 그냥 추워질 이게 아니라 외부의 어떤 변화에 감지하고 반응을 하는 거잖아요 감정도 사실은 똑같다 이게 어떤 어떤 신비한 어떤 존재가 안에서 만들어내는 것이 아니라지 맘대로 어떤 미묘한 상황적인 변화를 감지하고 그것에 대한 반응을 하는 것이다 그 얘기는 뭐냐면 감정의 출발점은 내 마음속이 아니라 사실은 그 도미노의 시작은 어떤 외부의 변화 같은 것이라는 거잖아요 그렇기 때문에 임의로 마음을 먹고 고쳐 먹는다 이거는 외부 인풋을 무시하는 것과 좀 똑같은 얘기가 되거든요 그래서이 감정이라고 하는 거 이런 것들이 왜 존재하며 그게 왜
(04:19) 이런 식으로 작동하는지에 대한 큰 그림을 우리가 생각하지 못했을 때 좀 익숙하게 주장을 했던 생각이지만 다행히 여러 가지 이제 변화들이 이제이 큰 줄기 에 생겨나고 있습니다 외부 변화라고 한다면 환경이 행복에 굉장히 큰 요소를 차지한다는 가죠 아주 그죠 나도 그걸 다 감지하지 못하지만 사실 내가 갑자기 기분 나쁜 이유는 내가 기억하지 못해도 뭔가 외부적 요인이 있었을 가능성이 커요 점심 시간에 약간 우리 상사의 이상한 눈빛 어 그게 그 당시는 그냥 쓱 자꾸 넘어갔는데 그게 나도 모르게 이제 뭔가 어떤 내가 오늘 기분이 좀 안 좋은 어 이유일 가능성이 크다라는 거죠 요지는 마음이 감정은 절대로지가 창작해내는게 아니에요 아니겠죠 아 그렇죠 그래고 뭔가 마음이 존재하는 이유는 우리 심장 우리 추위를 느끼는 것은 왜 느낍니까 추위를 느끼는 거 자체가 중요한게 아니라 환경 변화에 내가 적응하기 위해서 적절한 반응을 만들기 위한 것이거든요 춥다고 얘기한다는 얘기는 온도가 떨어지면
(05:22) 내가 해야 되는 건 뭐냐면 옷을 입어야 되잖아요 나를 옷을 있게 만들려면 내가 춥다라는 느낌을 해야 되는데음 정도 똑같다는 거죠 그래서 책에서 보면 반복적 순환 예를 들면 여기 책에서 순환은 상황 감정 행동의 시발점은 외부 환경이지 내면의 신비한 존재가 아니다라는 건데 그니까 생각을 바꾸는 거보다 환경을 바꾸는게 더 중요하다는 거죠 그렇죠 생각이 그 들어오는 어떤 인풋을 우리가 복사기 럼 우리 뇌가 그대로 찍어 가지고 그대로 요럴 때는 교과서적으로 무조건 이렇게 반응하고 하는 건 아니지만 그 가운데에서 약간 융통성이 있긴 있습니다만은 질적으로 들어오는 것이 완전히 바 가지고 이렇게 나가는 거는 사실은 뇌가 제 기능을 못 하는 거예요 감정 시스템이 고장난 거죠 극단적으로 우리가 약간 껌껌한 밤에 잘 모르는 어떤 움직이는 동물을 보면 무서움을 느껴야 되는데 그래야지 잠재적인 위험에 대해서 내가 조치를 취하자아요 도망을 깔 준비를 한다거나 근데 무조건 반갑기만 하다 이거는 뭔가 지금 적절한 뭔가 리액션을 하는데 있어서 적절한 감정이 아닌
(06:27) 것이죠 근데 우리가 지금 살아 있는 휴먼 비은 이걸 아주 잘했던 뇌를 소지한 사람들만이 지금 살아 있는 것이지 어 아무 때나 무작위로 감정의 신호들을 키는 뇌를 가지 사람들은 사실은 큰 진화의 어떤 여정에서 도태되었다이 크죠이 환경에서 그 책에서 그 얘기 나오잖아요 스님이 예전에 해골 바가지 그 정확하게 어떤 에피소드였던 우리 원요 대사님이 대사님이 그래가지고 뭐 모든 곳이 마음먹게 달려 있다 그서 에피소드가 아 그 밤에 물는데 똑같은 물인데 생각을 달리 했더니 뭐 밤에는 어저께 다았다 뭐 이런 말씀인데네 저는 거기서 그 결정적인 포인트는 뭐냐면네 밤에 그 해고를 보지 못했다라는게 더 결정적인 포인트라고요 그 책에서는 그걸 조명 조명의 중요성 얘기하시더라고요 저는 그게 마음 먹기의 중요성이 아니라 그래서 그거는 조명의 중요성을 나타내는 에피소드라고 생각하는데 하더라고요 약간 동심 파괴 기다고 만약에 제 마음먹게 달리면 어젯밤에 화난 밤이 아니겠죠 화난 데서 해골 을 보고도 그럼 내가 어이
(07:31) 맛있어 그럼 마음먹 고쳐 먹고 마시면서 달게 느끼는 것이 진짜 마음 먹기에 진정한 파워인데 그런 사람은 사실 매우 드물죠 어 자 그러면 한국분들은 또 정답부터 아는 거 되게 중요 책이니까요 행복을 좌우하는 요소 일단 키워드로 뭐 저는 알고 있긴 하지만 어떤 것들이 있는 거죠 너무 많습니다 너무 많는데 어 뭐 대표적으로 근데 크게 얘기한다면 외향성 같은게 중요하다라는 것이 행복 연 구 초기에서 발견된 연구자들도 예상치 못한 결과였어요 근데 한 사람이 아니라 우리가 견고한 결론이다 이렇게 말할 때는 이분 저분 저분 많은 연구실에서 동일한 결과가 계속 나온다고 하는 거는 아 이게 진짜 뭔가 견고한 썸띵이 있다라는 얘기잖아요 거기서 이제 행복을 예측하는 개인적인 특성은 수천개가 있겠죠 돈이 없는 것보단 있는게 조금 더 행복하고 등등인데이 수천개 변인 중에 하나를 지금 고르는게 아니라 가장 행복의 개인차를 많이 많은 퍼센테이지를 예측하는 변인 하나를
(08:36) 뽑으라 그러면 그때 외향성을 빼놓을 수 없다 하는 얘기죠 근데 그래서 자칫 이제 외향성이 중요하다 그러면 사실은 우리가 많은 일반인들이나 우리가 약간 오해하기 쉬운 건 뭐냐면 뭔가 외향성이 더 좋은 어떤 특징이고 뭐 이렇게 생각할 수도 있는데 저는이 행복의 기호에서 그런 얘기를 지금 쓰려고 노력 했습니다만 우리가 행복을 이해하기 위해서는 조금 행복을 좀 집중하지 말고 네 저기다 던져놓고이 감정 뭐 이런 것에 대한 어떤 인간에 대한 더 큰 그림을 조금 생각해볼 필요가 있어요 그랬을 때 제가 우리 행복이라고 하는 거를 이해할 때 우리가 좀 생각했으면 하는 큰 이슈 중에 하나는 행복감은 사실 어쨌든간에 어떤 경험이고 구체적으로 얘기하면 어떤 감정적인 경험인데 이거는 사실 우리 뇌가 필요에 의해서 어떤 용도가 있을 때 만드는 거란 말이에요 자 그런데 여기서 아주 중요하다고 생각하는 포인트는 우리의 뇌는 우리를 행복하게 만드 들어주는데 일만의 관심이 없어요 그래서 아까 마음먹기에 따라서 바뀐다 이게 사실은 약간 앞뒤가 좀 안 맞는 말이에요 왜냐
(09:37) 뇌는 우리를 행복하기 위해서 디자인이 되는게 아니거든요 수많은 시간을 통해서 우리 의지와 무관하게 그니까 어떤 소프트웨어를 갖게 되었는데이 소프트웨어 대주제는 우리를 행복 행복을 올려 주는게 아니라 생물학적인 문제인 어떤 이런 생존이라는 또 가장 중요한 어떤 유전자를 전달하는 문제 재생산의 문제 이런 것에 최적화된 시스템을 가지고 있고 그 큰 미션을 달성하기 위해서이 고차원적인 지능을 가진 호모사피엔스의 경우에는 어떨 때 어떤 상황에서이 감정이라고 하는 연장을 이용해서 그 큰 대주제를 달성하는 거거든요 그니까 간명하게 얘기하면 행복하게 만들어 주려고 얘가 돌아가는게 아니라 우리가 의식을 하든 안 하든 생존과 재생산의 어떤 확률을 높이기 위해서 최적 의 행동 느낌 이런 거를 발산하는 거거든요 근데 만약에 그렇기 때문에 가령 우리가이 볼펜을 보고 있으면 우리 입장에서는 볼펜만 봐도 행복해 아무리 봐도 우리 아 아침에고 볼펜 봐 그 행복해
(10:41) 행복의 비교로 볼펜 보는 거야 이게 행복해지고 싶다는 인간의 목표만을 생각하면 너무나 좋은 지금 라이프전아요 그런 약간 근데 뇌가 이건 고장난 거예요 왜냐면 뇌는 즐거움이나 행복과 관련된 긍정적인 정서를 느끼는 어떤 상황은 명확하게 어떤 상황에서만 느껴요 그 명확한 상황은 아까 얘기한 생존 재생산의 문제에 이득이 되는 상황에서만 내가 거기에 관심을 갖고 그것을 손에 지으려고 노력할 수 있는 동기를 유발시키기 위해서 만들어지거든요 볼펜은 그렇게 크리티컬 하지 않잖아요 그래서 여기에 계속 내가 좋다라는 느낌을 켜고 있으면 어이 친구는 이런 친구는 다 없어졌어요 어 왜냐면 생존이 중요한 사냥도 해야 되고 등등의 문제에 문제를 소홀이 하고 엉뚱한 어떤 뭐랄까 생물학적으로 비생산적인 것에 내가 계속 긍정적인 정서가 유발되는 것이잖아요 그렇기 때문에 외양적인 사람들을 우리가 그들이 약간 행복감이 좀 높은 편이다 이렇게 생각하면 어 그럼 외향적인게
(11:44) 뭔가 되게 우수하고 또 뭐 내향적인 것은 뭐 좀 뭐 열등한라는 사실 2분적인 생각을 할 수가 있는데 저는 아주 위험하고 근거가 없는 생각인 것이 행복이라고 하는 자은 어떤 뭐랄까요 틀 창문 보 보면 양적인 친구들이 어떤 이점이 있지만 아까 말씀드린 것처럼 우리의 대주제는 행복이 아니라 생존이란 생물학적인 문제잖아요 확대에서 보면 외향성을 가진 것이 어떤이 문제를 해결하는데 어떤 문제를 일으키는 경우도 많아요 만약에 행복이 우리의 전부라면 인류는 점점 외양적인 사람만 살아남았어요 돼요 그렇죠 근데 그렇지 않다고 하는 거는 외향성이 하는 것이 행복이라고 하는 작은 골목을 들여다 보면 이점이 있지만 다른 골목에서는 이게 갖고 있는 비용도 많다라는 것을 암시하는 것이거든요 대표적인게 뭐냐면 어 우리는 지금 이렇게 되게 비교적 안전한 세상에 살고 있잖아요 우리가 뭐 독거미가 있지도 않고 그죠 근데 늘 어떤 위험과 이런 요소들이 있을 때 외향적인 사람들은 되게 뭐랄까요 속된말로 좀 나대요 어 자극을 추구하고 어 그런 사람들이 전쟁 전쟁
(12:50) 사냥 내가 잡아올게 혼자 이런 어떤 만까지 부릴 수도 있고 예를 들 뭐 보인데 잘 모르는데 한번 먹어보는 거는 외적인 사람 아니 약간 그럴 확률이 높죠 맞아요 그 많이 죽어요 어 그리고 약간 요지는 간명하게 얘기하면 모든 성격적인 특질은 약간 뭔가 장점과 단점을 다 가지고 있어요 어 그런데 장점 중에 하나는 외향성은 행복감이 좀 높다라는게 장점이긴 해요 그렇다고 그렇지만 전체 패키지를 봤을 때 그래서 뭐 외향적인게 더 좋다 나쁘다 이거는 밥 먹을 때 젓가락이 좋냐 숟가락이 좋냐 같은 의문이에요 어 국을 먹을 때는 수저가 있어야 돼 을 임 다다는을 했 좋겠다이 말씀을드리고 싶어요 자 근데 외향적인 사람이 그 내향적인 사람보다 어쨌든 행복감을 느끼는 확률은 더 높다는 건데 그 이유는 말씀해 주셔야죠 그 이유도 복잡합니다 복잡한데 외성의 특성은 우리가 좀 있따 좀 얘기할 기회가 있겠습니다만 호모사피엔스의 뇌는 가장 뭐랄까요 아까 긍정적인 어 좋다라는
(13:56) 굳이 뭐 영어를 쓰자면 플레저 이게 사실 행복의 구 이거든요이 플레라 하는 좋다라는 느낌은 무작위로 켜지는게 아니라 아까 뭐라고 말씀드렸어요 어떤 생존의 필수품을 마주할 때 어 좋아 이런게 켜진다고 그랬잖아요 이차방정식 같이이 얘기를 풀어보면 인간에게이 2024년이 아니라 구한 시간 동안에 생존에 절대적으로 필요했던 것들이 무엇일까 왜냐면 그것을 볼 때 아직도 흥분하고 쫓아가고 이게 켜지거나 중요 했어요 사 사랑 아 왜냐면 지금 인간이 이만큼 된 이유 이만큼 됐다고 하는 거는 착각일 수 있지만 어쨌든 지구 먹이 사슬의 껍대기 지금 있잖아요음 그 어떤 슈퍼맨이 됐잖아요이 슈퍼맨이 된 계기 자체가 인간이 원래 이렇게 생물학적으로 우리가 무슨 무슨 힘이 센 애들도 아니고 그렇죠 아닌데 어떻게 갑자기 지구를 정복하게 되었느냐 그 키 설명이 사실 아까 지금 말씀드린 인간에게 온 유레카가 뭐냐 면 어 나 혼자는 맘모스를 못
(15:01) 잡겠는데 야 우리 12명이 마음을 합치면 잡겠다 그런 다음에 고기를 나누자 이거는 혁명적인 생각이었거든요 다시 말하면 사람이 서로를 약간 도구화를 하면 내가 혼자서 이룰 수 없는 것들을 막강한 힘을 갖게 되고 위험으로부터 보호할 수 있다라는 생각을 이제 갖게 되었는데 그 얘기는 타인이 서로에게 아주 생존에 필요한 도구가 된 거잖아요이 전구는 찾는다고 생존 필수품을 찾아요 그게 뭐냐 사람이에요 사람 그런데 외향성이 이제 여기서 우연의 일치가 생기는 거예요 사람또 자주 찾는 거겠 그죠 외향적인 사람은이 전구가 찾고 있는이 사람이라고 하는 자극을 그렇지 않은 사람에 비해서 일상에서 훨씬 많이 부닥치고 찾아요 자 그런데 여기서 하나의 오해 소지가 있는 건 뭐냐면 왜 찾느냐 하는 얘기죠 그게 이렇게 착각할 수도 있어요 어 뭔가 외향적인 사람은 사람을 그냥 그냥 좋아한다 어떤 사람은 단 거 좋아하고 짠 거
(16:03) 좋아하듯이 그냥 왜 내향적인 사람에 비해서 뭔가 사람이란 것 자체를 더 좋아한다 이게 단순한 설명이 될 수가 있는데 그것보다는 조금 더 그 밑에 있는 어떤 메카니즘을 얘기한다면 외향성이 하는 거는 약간 약간 유전적인 것도 있지만 내향적인 사람에 비해서 내가 가장 이상적으로 생각하는 자극의 양이 내향적인 사람에 비해서 더 많아야 돼요 우리 우리가 방 안에서 혼자서 하루 종일 있으면 지루하잖아요 그래서 친구한테 전화하고 TV도 켜고 외출을 하잖아요 그 얘기는 뭐냐면 너무 낮은 자극은 지루함을 줘요 그래서이 지루함을 없애기 위해서 적정 수준의 자극의 양이 있어야 되잖아요 근데 이제 재미난 점은 사람마다 그 추가적인 자극을 몇 개 더 필요로 하느냐가 차이가나요음 그랬을 때 결론적으로 외향성이 강한 사람일수록 가령 20개 정도의 자극이 있어야지 그때 비로서 좋아 좀 더 자극을 추구하는 거군요 그렇죠 그 내향적인 사람은 그렇게 비유를 하자면 열개면 충분해 열등 에부터 투머치가 돼요 그래서 12개가
(17:09) 되기 시작하면 어 나 그냥 집에 가서 오늘 쉴래 이렇게 되는 것인데 일상에서 인간에게 가장 재미나고 흥미진진한 자극은 압도적으로 사람이에요 그래서 사람을 찾는 그런 어떤 행동은 좀 더 깊이 얘기하면 외향적인 사람들은 자극을 추구하는 거고네 가장 재미난 자극인 사람을 많이 만나는 거예요 그런데 자기 뭐 원래 목적이 뭐든간에 우리의 뇌는이 사람이라고 하는 자극을 마주하고 같이 시간을 나눌 때 우리를 어 잘하고 있어 이런 보상을 주기 위해서 긍정적인 정설을 킨다고 했잖아요 그렇기 때문에 확률적으로이 스위치를 키는 자극인 사람을 내향적인 사람에 비해서 더 많이 지금 가지고 있는 것 많이 찾는 거죠 그런 기회를 마련하는 거죠 게 그런게 아주 근원적인 포인트입니다 외향성의 이제 생존에 유리하지만 내향인들은 살아남은 이유는 이제 내향인들은 또 장단점이 있으니까 숟가락 젓가락 같은 그런 느낌으로 이해하시면 되지 근데 또 책에서 그런
(18:13) 얘기는 있던데 그 외향적인 사람이 이제 행복의 천장이라는게 있다면 뭐 10점 만점이 뭐 수출할 수도 없지만 10점 만점이 있다면 외양적인 사람은 10점 만점에 10점에 행복할 수 있는 천장이 있다면 내향적인 사람은 10점만점에 한 7 8점이 좀 천장이 있다 그러면서 좀 말씀하신 에피소드 중 하나가 나는 내 친 여동생보다 그런 행복감을 좀 덜 느낀다 뭐 이런 얘기도 좀 있던데 이어진 얘기 같어요 맞습니다 예 이어지지만 이게 쉬운 얘긴데 좀 복잡합니다 그래 최대한 쉽게 설명을 해 보겠습니다 그 그 왜 그러냐면 이게 침략을 하시는 분들도 헷갈려 해요 근데 뭐냐면 우리가 어떤 현상을 설명할때 행복을 얘기해 우리가 예를 들면 사람마다 차이나는 개인차와 사람 내에서 시간에 따라서 변화한 는 변화는 다른 얘기예요네 어떻게 얘기해 볼까요 우리가 고등학교 때 1등부터 40등 수학을 제일 잘하는 친구가 있고 잘 못 하는 친구가 있어요 이건 개인차의 문제잖아요 그런데 유전적인 것이 약간 이런 개인차를 미리 조금 어느 정도 만들어요 어 등수를 그런데 사람들의
(19:16) 오해는 뭐가 유전적이다 그러면 어 그러면이 가령 수학 실력은 이제 안 변하는 거야 이렇게 생각할 수가 있는데 그 수학 실력이 변하고 안 변하는 거와이 개인 차와는 약간 무관해요 무슨 소리냐면 이 1등부터 40등 반 등수가 있지만 어떤 선 새로 부임한 선생님이 수학을 엄청 잘 가리키죠 그러면 1등부터 40등이 수학 성적이 다 올라요 다시 말하면 모든 사람에게 수학 실력의 변화가 생기죠 그러나 묘하게도 40등 1등까지 다 변하지만 반 평균값은 올랐겠죠 그런데 올라간 평균 값에서도 여전히 1등과 40등 순서는 어느 정도 있어요 이해가 되시죠 그니까 그 제일 을 못했던 친구랑 아무리 우리가 좋은 선생님 만나서 전 반 전체에 평균이 올라가도 그 제일 못했던 친구 갑자기 1등이 되는 경우는 등물 단하는 거죠 어 자 근데 아주 간명하게 얘기하면 유전적인 것은이 등수와 관련된 거예요 그 행복도 약간 굳이 우리가 평균값을 내면 누구나 행복이 6.7의 딱 고정돼 있는게
(20:21) 아니라 그렇죠 그런 평균값에서 좋은 일이 생기면 올라가기도 하고 떨어지기도 하지만이 사인곡선 같은 파장을 시간을 내가지고 평균값을 낼 수가 있잖아요 그랬을 때 그 평균값이 어떤 사람은 6.7이고 어떤 사람은 7.3 이더라 그럼이 평균값의 차이를 만드는 건 뭐냐 그거는 상당 부분 타고난 기질적인 것이 좀 중요한데 그 중에 많은 기질 중에 이런 외향성과 또 하을 추가한다면 낮은 신경증 이런 것들이요 등수를 좌우하는데 꽤 영향을 미친다 하는 거예요 그런데 행복은 수학 시험이 아니에요 그러니까 내가 내 위에 있는 녀석을 이기려고 하고 이런 경쟁을 하는 것 자체가 사실은 약간 불필요하기 하고 약간 넌센스에 가까운 거예요 우리가 행복을 생각하면서 굳이 좀 고민을 해보고 하는 거는 이런 것에 대해서 해보는 거죠 나의 평균값은 6.7인치 6.
(21:19) 7 보다도 떨어져 어떤 때 어떤 날은 더 올라가 그러면 나의 등수가 뭐든간에 나의 행복감을 평균보다 올리는 일들 어떤 상황 이런 것을 할 때 올라가고 어떤 상황에서 좀 더 떨어지고 하는 것을 이해하고 파악하는게 되게 중요하죠 그리고 나를 위해서 할 수 있는 거는 가급적이면 올리는 것들을 그런데 시간을 많이 소모하고 어 그런 것이 그게 더 훨씬 중요하다고 생각을 해요 지금 답변 주신 거 같은데 제가 원래 하려고 했던 질문 중 하나가 각자의 행복도는 거의 변하지 않고 노력한다고 해서 더 행복해지지 않는다고 책의 내용이 있는데 그러면 이제 우리는 왜 행복해지기 위해 노력하고 공부해야 되냐는 대답이 어쨌든 그 자신 안에서 변하는 그렇죠 변화 자신의 이제 폭 안에서 천장 쪽으로가 있는 일상을 만들기 위해서 바닥보다는 그러기 위해서는 우리가 어 뭐 우리가 의미 있다고 생각하는 것 우리게 즐거움을 주는 것 이런 것들을 자주 경험하는 것이 중요하죠 근데이 외향성이 관련된게 아까 전에 유전 얘기해 주셨는데 행복의 개인차 결정이는 가장 큰 요인 중 하나가 유전인 책에서
(22:24) 데이터가 나오는데 이게 거의 50% 결정한다고 개인적인 생각을여 주신다면 전 더 그 이상이라 라고 생각해요 어 그런데 그런 50% 이런 뭐 많은 분들이 아는 수치에는 사실은 그 뭐랄까 그렇게 정확하게 그 수치화할 수 있는 어떤 자료가 있을 수가 없어요 왜냐면 우리는 유전자를 지금 직접적으로 측정할 수가 없거든요 그래서 그거를 간접적으로 통계적으로 추론을 하는 것인데 쌍둥이 연구를 통해서 추론을 해요 그래서 일란성 쌍둥이들은 유전자가 100% 일치하거나 수많은 행복감이 이런 거를 측정을 하고 등등을 해 가지고 이런 것에 복잡한 공식을 통해 가지고 러플리 나오는 이제 예측값을 50% 정도 잡는다고 얘기를 하는데 저는 그 50% 보다 사실 요쪽 나머지에 대한 오해가 더 크다고 생각해요 무슨 소리냐면 그렇게 들으면 오케이 그렇구나 그런게 있지 왜 이거 어쩌면 당연한 거죠 우리가 약간 키 뭐 얼마나 치아가 튼튼하나 이게 무슨 일을 맨날 닦는다고고 그런게 아니잖아요 그죠 어 결정짓고 태 그러고 물론 다 끄면 도움이 되죠
(23:28) 되지 그렇지만 아니 아버님은 안 닦으시는 훨씬 튼튼하 전 벌써이가 막 깨지고 그랬거든요 어 그것이 약간 개인 차라는 거예요 그렇지만 그건 개인차고 우리가 할 수 있는 거는 그래도 치환을 닦는게 좋고 행복을 위해서는 할 수 있는 것들이 있어요 그래가지고이 개인차의 문제와 변화를 구분서 좀 생각하는게 필요한데 아까 얘기를 돌아간다면 50% 유전이 그럼 50% 나머지는 우리가 인생의 어떤 여러 가지 선택을 하고 하는 것들이야 했을 때 아까 말씀드린 그 정확한 뭐 저도 그부 분자는 제 전공은 아닙니다만 어떤 것이 어떤 유전적인 영향이 있다라는 걸 계산하는 어떤 공식에서 뭘 얘기하는 거냐면 어떤 개인차의 특성을이 한 변인 유전자가 약 50% 정도를 예측을 한다이 얘기거든요 그럼 여기서 조심해야 되는게 뭐냐면 오케이 그럼 나머지 50% 내가 뭘 선택하는가 결정하다 아니고 나머지는 50% 뺀이 세상의 인생의 모든 변인의 합이 50이요 명되지 않 가다가 벼랑 맞고 이거는 예측이 안 되죠 그래서
(24:33) 그중에서 굳이 내가 선택을 하고 하는 건 모르겠습니다 수치를 얘기하면 한 20% 될까요 사실 인생은 우연히 많잖아 제가 오늘 김작가 님이랑 여기 앉아 가지고 얘기할 것이다 전혀 예측할 수 없었던 일이에요 그죠 그리고 우연 여러 가지 것들이 이제 있는데 나머지 50은 그러면 내가 결정하 하는 것이냐 이거는 해석의 오류에요 그 얘기를 거꾸로 얘기하면 뭐 비유가 맞는지 모르겠습니다 제가 책에서 쉽게 약간 무슨 싸움을 하는데이 유전이라고 하는 녀석이 한 방의 주먹이 나머지 모든 아이들이 주목의 세이랑 거의 만 먹는다라는 거잖아요 그래서 결코 무시할 수가 없다라는 얘기죠 그런데 저는 여기서 약간 추가적으로 말씀드리고 싶은게 유전적 요인이 있다 그러면 우리의 반사적인 느낌 되게 답답해 해요 그렇죠 내가 할 수 있는게 없잖아요 근데 되게 재미난 건 뭔지 아세요 제가 사실은 한국에 오기 전에 저는 미국에서 교수 생활을 하다가 왔는데 캘리포니아 집 교님 저는 강의하면서 재밌다고 느낀 점은 어 저는 그때부터 20년 년 전부터 행복에 대한 강의를 대학에서
(25:37) 했었었는데요 토픽이 오면 행복은 상당히 유전적인게 꽤 커 전부는 아니지만이 얘기를 했을 때 학생들의 반응이 180도 달라요 어디 한국과 미국이야 뭐 어떻게 다르죠 미국 애들은 아 그러니 그리고 어떤 애들은 오 that good 왜냐면 그게 바꿔서 생각하면 내가 행복하다고 생각하면 어 나는 그냥 타고난 거구나 내가 뭘 노력 하지 않아도 난 그냥 해피한 거야 얼마나 좋은 일이야 그런데 암묵적으로 우리는 뭔가를 자꾸 나는 좀 안 좋은 상태 있고 발전시켜야 되고 뭐 노력을 해야 되고 이런 것에 좀 시달리는 거 같아요 그래서 한국의 학생들은 뭔가 좀 이게 되게 우와 구름 구름이 지나가는듯한 어떤 장면을 본듯한 어떤 반응을 하는 반면에 미국은 전혀 또 그것과 다르더라 하는 얘기예요 근데 여기서 더 중요한 포인트는 우리가 뭐가 전적인 영향이 있다 그러면 답답하기만 하고 뭐 이렇게 생각을 하는데 생각을 좀 더 넓혀야 된다고 생각해요 무슨 소리냐면 저는 이제 행복도 공부하지만 문화차 같은 것도 이제 연구를 했었었는데 한국 문화나 동양 문화에서
(26:42) 갖고 있는 어떤 특성 중에 하나가 우리는 약간 모든 인간의 특성은 합 이죠 선천적인 특성도 있지만 연습과 훈련과 노력의 합의 아아 그렇게 했을 때 후천적 노력 변화 이런 것의 중요성을 약간 과대 평가하 하는 사회예요 그게 필요 없다가 아닌데 어떤 거는 사실 후천적인게 아니라 타고하는게 더 중요하잖아요 제가 저 어떤 사람은 작곡가가 되기 위해서 내가 노력한다고 될 수가 없거든요 타이거우즈가 될 수도 없고 이거는 제 노력 부족이 아니라 어떤 선천적인 특성인데 만약에 극단적으로 야 인생은 다 노력하게 나르면 그럼 만약에 본인이 저를 타이즈로 만들고 싶어 근데 얘는 그렇게 묻힐 수가 없어 아니 한심해 그러면 결국 계속적으로 어떤이 제가 어떤이 목 표를 성취하지 못하는 근원적인 이유는 저의 노력에 부족이 된단 말이에요 단순화시킨 얘기지만 그래서 제가 말씀드리려고 하는 요지는 우리가 뭐 하면 되고 노력이 필요하다라는게 어느 선까지는 우리에게 뭔가 희망을 주고 하지만 어느 선을 넘으면 이거는 엄청난 스트레스의 원인이 될 수도 있어요
(27:47) 그래서 요지는 뭐가 유전적 이다라는 거는 어느 정도가 그런지에 대한 객관적인 우선 파악을 하는게 중요하지 아니야 아니야 싫어 하면 돼 이런 걸 가지고 무작정 뭔가 우리 감정적인 호소를 내세우는 것이 큰 그림에서는 좋은 것만 있는 것은 아니다라고 생각을 합니다 어 그 국방군은 미국에서 아까 전에 행복한 사람들 아 나는 기시적 행복한 거구나 이렇게 좋아한다 했는데 행복하지 않은 사람들은 그걸 어떻게 받아드리는 그런데요 있겠죠 있겠지만 뭐 뭐뭐 비웃거나 뭐 자거나 하겠죠 그건데 어 팩트는 뭐냐면 전 세계에 한 87% 80% 연구에 따라 좀 다르지만네 정도의 사람은 인생이 전반적으로 해피해요 약간 해피 매일 행복해 죽겠다가 아니라 어 뭐 안 좋은 일이 있죠 짜증나는 일 있지만 그게 불행한 건 아니고 근데 평균적으로 내가 중립이라고 합시다 약간 행복 동네가 있고 내 인생의 평균값이 불행 동네가 있으면 사람들에게 뭐 미국만 물어본게 아니라 전 세계적으로 수천만 명의 사람들의 서베이를 다 모아서 분석을
(28:53) 한 연구도 있어요 보면은 80 저도 87% 정도의 사람들이 행복 동네에서 삶이 왔다 갔다 해요 어 그러니까 우리가 인생은 불행해 이게 어떤 불행한 순간들이 있는 것이지 대부분의 사람들은 불행해하는 거는 사실은 약간 과장일 가능성이 커요 그리고 대부분의 사람들이 불행하다 그러면 사실은 어떤 진 생물학적인 수준에서도 생존에 상당히 분리해요 그래서 약간 들떠 있는게 과하지 않게 이게 우리게 뭔가 활력도 주고 탐구를 하기 위해서는 내가 슬프거나 두려울 때보다 뭔가 우리가 여유가 언제 있습니까 재밌고 뭐 이럴 한번 해봐 객기도 부리고 그죠 그런 걸 위해서는 약간 해피한 에너지가 있어야 되기 때문에 천정이 딱 붙어 있을만큼 너무 매일 해피하다 이거는 이상한 거지만 약간 해피한 미국의 경우도 대부분의 사람들은 뭐 퉁 친다면 아홉명 정도는 약간 해피한 경향성이 좀 있어 한국 사실 마찬가지예요 한 조금 내려가면 한 여덟 여덟 [음악]
(29:57) 명 n [음악]